PRODUCTION Ham's Brave New Ward [Tamade Hamu de beiju]
Data Type：interview
Author：Tseng, Eunice
Title：Interview with Ham's Brave New Ward [Tamade Hamu de beiju] Director Tu, Yefei
Date：2012/12/7
Language：Chinese; English
Abstract：An interview with the director about the production's adaptation, representation.
Interview with Tu Yefei
Eunice Tseng
7 December 2012
問: 您的這齣"他媽的 哈姆的 悲劇"講整齣戲視為一種療程，將原本多面向的哈姆雷特這個角色平面化成一個精神異常的病患，想請問是什麼動機讓您有這樣的構想?
涂導: 一開始是一名台大戲劇所研究生的畢業製作找我當指導合作，而他當時想做的就是哈姆雷特，我們還因此在劇本及演法上有一些爭執。我想妳有發現最後我們提供了兩種結局，觀眾的反應都很不同很有趣，一個是最後哈姆真的死在台上，完成了他的使命與任務，觀眾的反應都很錯愕甚至不知道為何結局是這樣，畢竟這不是應該只是一個療程嗎?另一個是最後他選擇永遠沉默，我們可以把他解釋為一種文本上的完結，因為劇裡的哈姆雷特已死，所以演員本身就沒有任何台詞了，或許其實，當醫學體系試圖治癒瘋狂，反而把他們(指病患)帶到另一種絕境，可能不去治療他們對他們來說才是好的(笑)，觀眾看完以後好像就有一股淡淡的哀愁，而我本身比較喜歡後面這個結局，有這樣的構想我想也是因為我比較擅長做tragic comedy(悲喜劇)的因素吧
問: 對您來說，莎士比亞代表什麼? 之前您的畢業製作是做契柯夫的「櫻桃園」，也深受他的影響，因為契柯夫比較是趨於寫實手法的劇作家，不過您的作品大多不是採用寫實的手法，尤其是這齣「他媽的 哈姆的 悲劇」，有些改編莎劇的演出試圖用寫實的方式呈現，不知道您在莎士比亞的身上是否有看到這份「寫實」?
涂導: 其實對我來說莎士比亞相當不寫實，可以說他是個通俗劇大師，他的作品有血腥、暴力、還有其他通俗劇必備的元素。而契柯夫雖說他是寫實大師，但其實他的劇情走向也算是通俗的，寫實的也是他最迷人之處是在於他對人物的細節刻畫和性格型塑。我覺得莎士比亞吸引人的地方也並不是他的劇情，而是他的文字魅力，老實說比起一些其他的劇作家，我沒有很喜歡他的劇情內容，但他的語言真的是相當吸引人。莎士比亞的作品已經有太多改編了，觀眾想看的早也不是劇情而是去看表演，看手法。當我第一次在導這齣戲的時候，花了比以前都還要久的時間去跟演員解釋這個劇本，他們有的人還是無法理解為什麼要做這樣的安排。以前我的指導老師賴聲川老師強調，重要的應該是文本放在當代產生的意義，還有和觀眾之間的關係，並不是只是想要再去做所謂的忠實呈現。畢竟劇作家已死，但他的作品留傳下來就應該要有其他新的詮釋和意義。在以前的時代，發生在貴族或顯赫之人身上的悲劇才是悲劇，但台灣並不像莎士比亞的年代有所謂貴族階級，台灣的悲劇就是一般民眾的悲劇，我們有理想有知識，卻無法有足夠的行動力，這是我在哈姆雷特身上看到的共通性。回到一開始指導這齣戲所遇到演員理解力上的困難，演員因為不懂為何要把原劇改成這樣因而不知道該怎麼演，之後它在紅樓還有其他地方演出時(不同演員)，有一名法國導演看完之後告訴我他覺得這樣的詮釋非常有趣，還有一個來自柏林的設計師說這是一個新的哈姆雷特。我覺得這也是劇場在台灣發展還不夠成熟的緣故，觀眾沒有養成進劇場看戲的習慣，其實對不管是演員還是觀眾，多方面的接觸和訓練都是很重要的，所謂的「訓練觀眾」，就是可以讓他們更頻繁的進劇場，多接觸所謂實驗性或是不同於以往大家熟悉的線性表演方式，在台灣會來看小劇場的人好像就是年輕族群，因為覺得很酷所以來看，而比較年長的成人也習慣某種表演形式，我希望表演不是被定義在這樣的侷限，而是不同的年齡身分背景都可以在看戲的時候得到屬於自己的感受。對於一部作品，劇作家要懂並清楚自己在做什麼，但觀眾不用拿看不看得懂這件事來困擾自己，對我來說重要的是來看的人可以得到他們想得到的東西，可以是感動、娛樂、或是發洩，每個人的感受都是不同的。
問:在劇裡的醫生一直強調just do it是為了要和哈姆的猶豫做對比嗎?
涂導: 當我知道要做哈姆雷特的時候，我看了原著劇本幾乎五十次，覺得他是一個非常猶豫不決幾乎是一個很煩人的人，而且你會發現他相當依賴何瑞休，我在想如果我有朋友是這樣的人，應該會非常不堪其擾(笑)。就像我之前提的，我在他身上看到某種知識份子的特質，也可以是台灣所謂的文青。哈姆雷特在當時的年代其實是第一波知識份子的代表，在他身上我也得到某種身分認同，有時我們有想法，有慷慨的言論和理想，細密的思考與衡量，這是知識份子非常重要的特質，但也是因為這個「思考周詳」的特質阻擋了行動的發生，就算好不容易有了一個action，但可不可以繼續持續也是一個大問題，這就是我認為台灣現在的現象，我個人有時也是心有戚戚焉。所以沒錯，你會發現真正有決定性做為的是裡面一起陪他演戲的醫生還有病友何瑞休，其實這也是一齣諷刺劇，to be or not to be被體制化成一個case的名稱，醫生照著療程的SOP(標準作業程式)去實驗這樣的方式是否可以成立。我一方面暗示那種在體制機構下人類失去某種人本而淪於機械化的情形，所以我把場景設定在未來，假設所有的一切都被科學還有醫學給定義。因此思考周密的知識份子他們的多慮使他們無法產生有效的行為，反而是沒有那麼多瞻前顧後的行動派和體制在推動歷史前進，這是一個矛盾但又真實的情況。這齣戲藉由這樣的方式，我其實更想探討的是何為真正的悲劇，這也是為何我比較喜歡第二個結局(哈姆最後永遠沉默)的原因，真正的悲劇並不是死亡，而是活著你卻失去了存在感，最後哈姆他並沒有死，也就是他並沒有完成身為哈姆雷特應該要完成的任務，他也不再是哈姆雷特了，他失去了存在的意義，這才是真正的悲劇。
問: 在實際操作和您在戲劇系所研習到的輔助性和出入有多少?
涂導: 因為我在北藝大和台大都待過，現在很多舞台劇的演員也是這兩個地方出身，我就對於這兩個學院就我的觀察做一個分析，台大戲劇的同學比較擅長分析，他們會問你相當細的問題，這個角色的背景個性喜好為何做這個動作的動機等會做相當細膩的研究，最後形成一個表演方式呈現給你看，但是有時候可能是演員本身體悟很深，可是呈現出來的並無法給予觀看者那樣的感受，而北藝大的學生會直接給你幾種不同方式的演法，問你是需要哪一種的，這樣的差異很有趣，我覺得我們在演員的訓練上都需要再加強，剛剛說到寫實的表演手法，如果是在螢幕上呈現是可以達到那樣的效果，可是若是放在舞台上，當演員的能量張力不夠，很容易看起來是一個奇怪的演出，我覺得尤其是聲音訓練是台灣演員普遍缺乏的，要如何把音量放大但維持自然是需要長期訓練的。
問:您把整齣戲分成四幕，分別是朋友、女人、復仇和死亡。除了導戲之外，在架構這齣戲時是否有有別於以往寫劇的方式?
涂導: 這是我第一次寫劇時先擬好大綱，我以前都是從頭開始想到哪裡就讓它有什麼樣的發展，但當然，因為他是莎士比亞，我也有被檢視的壓力，而且其實他的故事架構是很清楚大家也都很熟悉的，細節就更容易被檢視了。我把它分成四個分類因為那是我在哈姆雷特裡看到的架構，同時也反映了人的生活中不可缺少的要素，我們身邊的人，喜歡的人，想做的事，以及對死亡的恐懼。也就是裡面他的朋友，女人，而復仇就是他想做的事。同時我們可以發現其實他是很害怕死亡之後的世界的，雖然對他來說死亡是一種使命的完成，因為以那樣的狀態活著使他失去存在感，但因為對死亡世界未知的恐懼，也是他猶豫不決的原因。
問: 之前您提到比較擅長做tragic comedy，尤其在這齣劇裡，您認為莎劇其實也是充滿著荒謬的成分嗎?
涂導: 是的，除了之前我說他是通俗劇大師之外，這可能也是因為做為一個導演，我認為需要維持七成的理性三成的感性，你必須要和劇本本身保持某種程度的疏離才有辦法較客觀的看到全局還有他背後的建構，而演員則是相反過來，變成三成的理性七成的感性，他才有辦法投入那個角色。所以當我在看悲劇的時候，因為那份疏離感和理性，常常會看到背後的荒謬，當妳保持距離的時候，它會變成comedy，而當你太近的時候，就變成drama了，這也是為何我和那名學生會有相當大的歧意，他是演員出身，因此想要演出那種細膩的情緒，比較偏drama的，但我本身是做戲劇編導的，我們想要的層面就不同，當他堅持要演「他的」哈姆雷特，我卻希望他要去想的不是莎士比亞那個年代的哈姆雷特的邏輯，而是在未來，一個精神病患的狀態，而精神病患的思考是沒有邏輯的，所以在情緒合理上做爭議便會失去它的意義。
問: 在Taipei Times的報導裡，有轉述說在此劇您試著重新處理哈姆雷特和女人之間的關係，您覺得它是一個相當父權代表性的角色，藉由此劇，您是想要去強化父權概念對我們造成的影響還是試圖去翻轉這個關係?
涂導: 如同劇名所說這是「他媽的」哈姆的 悲劇，一方面是他真的很他媽的(煩)，一方面也是這是他跟他媽媽之間的關係所造成的事情。在討論哈姆雷特時，大家會想到底他媽媽，也就是王后，到底知不知道她丈夫是被他弟弟謀殺的，我想他媽媽是知道的，但為了保全，與其說是他自己的性命不如說是為了哈姆雷特的王位，她必須要裝不知情繼續維持王位繼承的合法性以及哈姆雷特的人身安全，裡面的王后還有奧菲麗亞都是禁聲的，在父權的社會裡他們沒有辦法替自己發聲甚至在文本裡也沒有這個權利，在劇裡(他媽的 哈姆的 悲劇)當女醫生也回擊了哈姆的屁股就像哈姆之前把她當奧菲麗亞對待打了她的屁股，全場的觀眾不分男女都拍手歡呼，其實父權並不是專指男性的專有態度，它代表的是一種權威機制。我一直覺得很多人很怕女性主義這個詞，覺得它背後的負擔太重了，其實我之前也是，一直在想我到底是不是一個女性主義者，以前在寫劇本的時候都刻意不要太讓我的女性意識被發現，不想聽到有人看完劇後就說:「這一定是個女作家寫的。」但後來漸漸知道所謂的女性主義也不再只是專指女性才可以聲稱的，它是一種對權威的反動與挑戰的態度，我身邊也很多男性都說他們是女性主義者，因為他們也都被某種權威壓迫，後來我想，不管我再怎麼想掩飾，劇裡一定還是存在自己的意識形態，被發現就被發現吧，所以妳看我最近的「珍妮鳥生活」就是我不想掩飾的最佳表態。(笑)
問:為何在劇中以三語演出(英文中文台語)呈現，還有歌仔戲以及雜技的穿插安排?從兒童劇到您的「意外跨文化劇團」之間的過渡期是受到什麼的影響?因為您的兒童劇似乎試圖把原本固定寓意取向的童話加深了層次，而這齣「他媽的 哈姆的 悲劇」卻把原本哈姆雷特的多重性以瘋狂涵蓋同時也單一化了行為的眾多可能性，希望可以知道您這樣有趣的安排背後的涵意?
涂導: 我覺得妳說的很對，以前我做的第一齣兒童劇「巫婆煮成一鍋湯」裡的巫婆引誘那些所謂好人的角色，包含白雪公主睡美人...等，利用他們的弱點還有愛慕虛榮把他們都丟到鍋子裡成為她的「好人湯」，也是試圖要翻轉童話世界裡太天真的二元對立，好人也有缺點，她的善良也可以是她的武器，我覺得常常兒童劇都把孩子的理解能力低估了，最後淪為空泛的口號:愛與希望的美麗世界。其實他們懂得比我們以為的還多很多，不過不同地區的孩子確實也有不同的反應，在台北演出時，他們看的時候比較冷靜，事後還會認真的討論，而在新竹演出時孩子比較投入，其中有一名孩子看到皮諾丘被丟進鍋子裡時還無法忍受的大哭了。其實這個意外的跨文化是因為後來我們的劇團增加了很多來自不同國家背景的人員，包含演員還有幕後，我覺得這是很好的一件事，演員們可以互相學習，就算有點語言隔閡，但真的可以發現肢體語言是無國界的，像你看到主演哈姆的Adam，他以前在愛丁堡就是一名很專業的演員，他是聽不懂中文的，但是在演出的時候整個節奏還是維持的很好，因為它是靠記憶別人的肢體動作來去反應自己接下來的台詞。我覺得演員的肢體是很重要的，若要說那種細微的寫實，電視或電影可以方便的做到，老實說如果真的要寫實的話，就要有所有年齡層的演員，如同我叫一個二三十歲的人演老人，他可能再怎麼揣摩再怎麼演練台詞也沒有我真的將一個八十歲的老人讓他靜靜的坐在劇場中間，就算他一句話都不說卻相當寫實和有張力，這就是所謂到底劇場該不該寫實的問題，觀眾是否真的有那樣的認同。像我放入歌仔戲，因為我覺得那是很能代表台灣的文化，還有也是因為那位演員本身就是唱歌仔戲出身的，我會因為我的演員組成的性質還有他們的長處來增加不一樣的安排，而且我本身很喜歡雜技，不論是東方的京劇或是西方的特技都包含有雜技的表演形式，雖然沒有語言，但雜技卻是全神貫注在肢體上的動作，他同時可以帶來娛樂性也可以有本身的象徵意義。以前我在戲劇所的時候，老師要我們即興改編莎劇，我串連了莎劇的四部愛情劇，用馬戲團的方式呈現，因為莎劇的愛情還有現實生活中的就像是兩人的消長關係，我下了一個標語叫愛情如馬戲，羅密歐與茱麗葉的戀愛其實本身就充滿荒謬，但這荒謬的成分卻也是促成愛情的因子，你覺得這樣的劇情可笑，但想想在戀愛中的自己其實也一樣可笑，但是當你投入時，一切都是可歌可泣的，這時荒謬與可笑卻讓你看到自己真實的樣子，我想這也可以解釋哈姆那幾近沒有邏輯可笑的背後，其實也是反映面對現實生活中無奈而逃避到極致，卻在其中找到自己存在感的矛盾。
問: 未來有沒有可能再做莎劇改編?
涂導: 如果有機會當然很願意再嘗試，下一齣我會想做的改編可能是「羅密歐與茱麗葉」，兩家的家長不同意對方交往，因為一個來自名聲好的高中一個則是不好的高中，我想這也是台灣所謂的新階級關係吧(笑)。做莎士比亞已經不能只是移植古典，而是要讓文本在現代社會中可以有它的意義和與觀眾的共鳴。
Tseng: You treat Hamlet as the course of treatment, in which the essentially multifaceted character, Hamlet, is rendered univocal as a psycho. What propels you to come up with this idea?
Director Tu: At the very beginning, it was a drama major in NTU (National Taiwan University) asking me to cooperate with him and do further directing for graduation performance, and what he wanted to do at that time is Hamlet , for which we had disparate opinions on script and acting. I believe you know we provided two endings, and audience’s reactions toward each are different and interesting. One version is that in the end Ham dies, fulfilling his fate and mission, which left audience mostly shocked and confused, after all the play Hamlet shall be only for a case of treatment not a real event. Another version is Ham chooses to remain silent forever, which can be regarded as a textual consummation, since Hamlet perished in the end, as an actor playing Hamlet he has no word to say anymore. Perhaps, when medical system tends to cure madness, it may lead the patients to impasse, thus in such case to let them stay what they have stayed could be another better choice. Watching this result, audience may feel the faint sorrow skims over their mind. I myself prefer the second version, and one of the reasons I came up with the main plot of Ham’s Brave New Ward is because I used to and feel more at ease doing tragic comedy.
Tseng: What does Shakespeare mean to you? You choose to do Chekhov’s The Cherry Orchard as your graduation performance, and you said that you have been under great influence of him, whose style is quite realistic, but mostly your plays are not the type, especially Ham’s Brave New Ward. Some Shakespeare adaptations represent the story with realism, do you find Shakespeare realistic?
Director Tu: For me Shakespeare is far away from being realistic, I would even dub him the master of melodrama, whose works contain bloodshed, violence, family struggle that are ingredients for melodrama. The similar characteristic can be found in Chekhov, though as a master of realism, his plot somehow can be melodramatic as well, and what is realistic and also enchanting is how he portrays his characters through detailed and trivial gestures. For me, what’s appealing in Shakespeare’s works is not the plot but his language. Frankly speaking, comparing with other playwrights of classics, I don’t appreciate Shakespeare’s plot that much, but I do love his language. Since his works have been adapted into multiple kinds of performances, what audience is really interested in not the plot but the method, or technique is staging. I spent quite a long time explaining the script ( Ham’s Brave New Ward) to my actors, but some of them still didn’t get the ideas. My advisor, professor Sheng-chuan Lai emphasizes that the significance shall lie in the meaning of texts for our time rather than merely insisting on faithfulness to the origin. After all, the author is dead and absent, but the works have been passed down to elicit new horizons of interpretations. In Shakespeare’s time, only the ill fate of the noble or the great serves the name “tragedy,” of nobody is not. However, there is no noble class in Taiwan, the tragedy in this nation occurs to common people, like those having vision and knowledge, but sufficient action, and this is also the struggle of Hamlet. Back to actors’ understanding of this play, they had encountered difficulty in acting for some of them couldn’t accept the arrangement and logic within the play. When it was staged in The Red House in Taipei, there was a French director came to me said that he enjoyed the play and found this way of interpreting Shakespeare quite interesting. Another costume designer from Berlin called it a “brand new Hamlet.” I think our problem is that our environment for theater is still in development, and generally speaking, most of people in Taiwan regard going to theater as extraordinary experience rather than a thing to do in leisure. In my opinion, not only actors but also the audience needs to be trained and exposed to different forms of theater arts. To have our audience trained means encouraging people to go to theaters more often, and exposed to experimental or any other type different from the performance of linear time that people get too used to. In Taiwan, the target audience for experimental theaters seemingly focuses on young people who think this form of performance is “cool,” but for adults the method is not so acceptable to them. I hope to go beyond this boundary and let my audience of different age and background can enjoy the play in their own way. It is necessary for a playwright to know what he or she is doing for the production, but the audience don’t need to bother themselves figuring out playwright’s intention. To me what is more important is that the audience get what they want, they may find the play speak to their heart, entertaining or provide an outlet to bring the emotion, as long as they can identify with anything in the play.
Tseng: In the play the doctors keep emphasizing the phrase “just do it,” is that for making contrast of Hamlet?
Director Tu: Knowing that I have to do something based on Hamlet, I had read the original script for nearly fifty times and found his (Hamlet) indecisiveness awfully annoying. He mainly relies on Horatio, and I think if I had friend like this I would have him zip his mouth (laugh). As I mentioned, I see in him the characteristic of a typical intellectual, in Taiwan we may call him “wen qing” (refers to young intellectual though there is another kind more akin to “hipster”). Hamlet represents the first wave intellects at his time, and to some extent I identify with him and his struggle. As an intellect, you may issue generous statement and have great expectations, and you have to take different perspectives, examine and approach the core of thing with proper measuring. However, it is also this characteristic of “including all dimensions for considering” delaying the rendering of action, and even there is, whether it continues to have effect and elicits other actions is another challenge, that is the dilemma I think Taiwan has been gone through, and I sometimes have the same feeling. As you pointed out, it is the doctors and the patient acting as Horatio that make the whole play (the play itself and also the play within the play) roll forward. You can take Ham’s Brave New Ward as a satire, within it “to be or not to be” becomes mere tagging of patient case, and the doctors cautiously follow the steps of S.O.P to see the result of the experiment. I try to show how human beings lose the spirit of humanity and become reduced to mechanical operator under the structure of institution, so the time setting is far reaching future when all things are defined by science and medical system. The intellects with thoughtful cast of mind hardly render effective gesture, but people of actions and the governing of institutions keeps history moving forward, this seemingly conflicting phenomenon is the reality. What I intended to explore is that what is tragedy exactly, and the answer explained why I prefer the ending of the second vision (Ham becomes silent), a real tragedy is not death, but a living dead. Being alive still, Ham fails to consummate what Hamlet shall have done, and he is not Hamlet anymore. Losing the meaning for life, that is the real tragedy.
Tseng: Do you find the gap between practical experience and what you have learned in drama department?
Director Tu: I have studied in TNUA (Taipei National University of the Arts) and NTU (National Taiwan University) that many theater actors are trained in these two programs, and I have observed something interesting. Dramatic majors from NTU are usually good at analyzing, they will ask me detailed questions including the background and personality of the character and how these conditions lead to certain gestures for this role, and after speculating upon the cause and effect they form a way of acting to show me the result, but sometimes it is only the actor dedicated deeply to the emotion but the spectators just don’t get it that much. And dramatic majors from TNUA are totally another type, they will show three to five ways of performing for me to choose. It is interesting to see how performers are trained and shaped under different programs, but in terms of the training of actors, I think there is still space to improve. Back to realistic acting we just talked about, which might be more easily achieved if filmed, but onstage, it requires actors with experience and strength, if not, the whole play would be an awkward performance. Most of our actors lack vocal training to project their voice properly without obscuring or exaggerating their acting.
Tseng:You divided the play into four acts, which are Ham’s friends, women, revenge, and death, and it seems more like a categorizing rather than a chronological sequence. In addition to directing, how do you make the structure like this and whether it differs to what you used to do in script writing?
Director Tu: That was my first time setting the plot structure before any word to be put down. I used to let my pen follow my thoughts henceforth the story would be open until I finish the whole thing, but not the same dealing when writing Ham’s Brave New Ward. That is, certainly, because I was doing Shakespeare, I’d better get ready to be examined since people are familiar with his plot structure, the focus will be laid on the details. I divided the play into four categories for that in my perspective, the play Hamlet is built upon Hamlet’s relations with theses four, which also represent the indispensible elements in our life: people around us, people we like, things we want to do, and our fear of death. For Hamlet, to revenge is the thing he wants to succeed and achieve, and he is also afraid of the unknown state after death, though death to him seems the ineluctable outcome and means another mission completed because being alive with such desperate state of mind could be worse than death. His fear of death is also one of the reasons of postponing the action.
Tseng: You mentioned that you prefer to do tragic comedy, do you think Shakespeare’s woks also contain the elements of absurdity?
Director Tu: Yes, I will find the lurking absurdity in Shakespeare’s work just like how I treat him as the master of melodrama, and another reason is that, as a director, I think you have to maintain 70 percents of rationality and 30 percents of sensibility, to have the panoramic view on the work and seek the trace of playwright’s mind, it is necessary for a director to keep a bit of distance with the work. While for actors it is the reverse, that is 30 percents of rationality and 70 percents of sensibility, so he can get into the role. That explains why when I watch or read tragedy, because of being alienated and rational, I see the absurdity behind. Seeing with distance, thing appears as comedy, getting too close, it becomes drama. Owing to this difference between director and actor, my perspective was opposite with that drama major I mentioned, as an actor wanting to let out the flow of emotion, his version is more drama like, so what we wanted to focus is quite different. He insisted on playing his Hamlet, but I tried to persuade him into having a logic of a psycho, not of Shakespeare’s Hamlet, and the only logic of a mad person is illogic, so it would be meaningless if spending too much efforts on “proper emotion.”
Tseng: I have learned from your interview in Taipei Times that in Ham’s Brave New Ward you tried to give a new dealing of relation between Hamlet and women. You have mentioned that you take Hamlet as a patriarchal character, so by this play, did you try to reverse the power relationship between man and woman or rather, just emphasized how our mind is shaped and formed by patriarchal structure in society?
Director Tu: As the title suggests (in Chinese this play is called 「他媽的 哈姆的 悲劇」, means “damn Ham’s tragedy,” 他媽的is Chinese cursing word and also means “of his mother”), Ham is too annoying for people around him to bear with, and the story itself is also based on his relation with his mother. In discussing issues in Hamlet, we wonder whether his mother, the queen, knows that his husband is murdered by Claudius, and I think she does. However, on the behalf of Hamlet rather than of herself, she has to pretend to be ignorant for not arousing suspicion or Claudius may come up with another scheme to persecute Hamlet, and if that happens there would be no hope for Hamlet to regain the crown. In Hamlet, the female characters Gertrude and Ophelia are prevented from speaking for themselves. In patriarchal society they are deprived of their voice, even the text didn’t give the right either. In a scene of Ham’s Brave New Ward, when the female doctor taps Ham’s bottom just as how he did to her because he treated her as Ophelia, the audience including men and women burst out in loud cheers. Patriarchy is not just limited to men’s dominion but it also represents institution or authority. I think people somehow fear feminism for the burden of its discourse, and honestly I used to think that way as well. I ask myself whether I am a feminist or not since I used to suppress my feminine consciousness when writing scripts, I don’t want to hear things like “it’s definitely a female playwright’s work.” But gradually I have learned that it is not only for women to claim feminism since it shall be taken as a challenge or reaction to authority. Some of my male friends are pro feminism because they think they are under oppression of the ideology of authority. And the truth is, no matter how hard I try to cover up, my work always entails my consciousness, so why not just let it be? My latest play My Name is Jenny could be the finest demonstration of “I am ok with that”.(smile)
Tseng: Why you made the play trilingual(English, Chinese and Taiwanese) and added acrobatics and Taiwanese opera? From children theater to “E.W cross-cultural theater” (E. W refers to “yi wai” in Chinese, which means accidentally), what motivates you to change your focus? In your children plays, you tried to increase the layers of interpretations to fairy tales which usually carry morals, but on the contrary, you seemed to simplify Ham’s characteristics that all his behaviors, due to his madness, are rendered the same since they are only the presentations of symptoms, so what prompts you to come up the idea?
Director Tu: I think you are right at the point. In my first children play「巫婆煮成一鍋湯」(The witch is making soup), the witch seduces those “good characters” such as Snow White or sleeping beauty by their weakness and arrogance and put them into cauldron to make “good people soup,” to do this I tried to reverse and go beyond the naïve binary of good and bad in fairy tale. Those what we call “good people” have their defects and weakness, their kindness can be their weapons to defend themselves. I think children plays usually underestimate children’s comprehension; therefore those plays might be merely reduced to slogan like “wonderland of love and hope.” What children knows are much more than we presume, and their reactions are varied according to different regions. In Taipei, children had behaved more calmly when watching and they would discuss the play. In Hsinchu it is another situation, children are more engaged and there was a boy even burst out crying when seeing Pinocchio being thrown into the cauldron! So we started our E. W(accidentally) cross-cultural theater mainly because later on we have many newcomers from different countries to join our troupe, including actors and backstage crew, which I deem as a progress for actors to learn from each other even there is a bit of language barrier, but body language crosses the boundaries. Like Adam who played Ham is a theater actor from Edinburgh, although he can’t understand much Chinese, he has no problem to interact with other actors in the play that he knows when to respond according to certain gestures of other actors as hints. I think body language for actors is quite important. Talking of realistic acting the main concern lies on the control of emotion, but just like what I said, realistic styles are more easily produced by film or TV, if I really tend to make a realistic play, I need actors of all ages, if there is a character of old age in the play, it is more realistic and convincing to put a real eighty-year-old man on stage rather than making a young man play this role. So again, it is the issue of whether theater shall be realistic, sometimes the audience just don’t feel that way. I added Taiwanese opera because it is representative for Taiwanese culture, and another reason is that the actress knows how to do it since she used to sing in Taiwanese opera troupe. I feel free to add in different type of performance according to my actors’ capabilities. I myself like acrobatics pretty much, no matter in eastern theater as Beijing opera or western stun performance, acrobatics are frequently included. When doing acrobatics, the performer totally concentrate on the balance of his physical body. Without language, acrobatics is a visual entertainment and also can be seen as a symbol if there is one. When I was in drama department, my professor asked us to adapt any work of Shakespeare impromptu, so I integrated four love stories of his work and represent them in a circus like performance. For me any relation of love no matter in Shakespeare or in our life is like a tug of war between the two, I entitled the impromptu play as “love is like circus.” Romeo and Juliet’s romance is quite absurd, but that absurdity is indispensible for love. You find their three-day romance ridiculous, but you are the same when falling in love with someone, but you may not sense that when you are in the relation because you would be so devoted that everything between you two is as stirring as a love story. In the absurdity and ridiculousness we are much closed to ourselves, and that also explains the paradox of Ham that he chooses madness as an ultimate escape from reality, but it is only in such state he feels alive.
Tseng: Would you be willing to do Shakespeare adaptation again in the future?
Director Tu: If having chance, sure. I would like to try Romeo and Juliet in which the two families are unhappy with each other because the couple enters different high schools that one is at the toppest of the ranking and the other is at the bottom, I think that is the new hierarchy order in Taiwan now (laugh). Doing Shakespeare is not about making copy of the classic but extending it to have a new layer of meanings related to contemporary issues and the audience.
Eunice Tseng
7 December 2012
問: 您的這齣"他媽的 哈姆的 悲劇"講整齣戲視為一種療程，將原本多面向的哈姆雷特這個角色平面化成一個精神異常的病患，想請問是什麼動機讓您有這樣的構想?
涂導: 一開始是一名台大戲劇所研究生的畢業製作找我當指導合作，而他當時想做的就是哈姆雷特，我們還因此在劇本及演法上有一些爭執。我想妳有發現最後我們提供了兩種結局，觀眾的反應都很不同很有趣，一個是最後哈姆真的死在台上，完成了他的使命與任務，觀眾的反應都很錯愕甚至不知道為何結局是這樣，畢竟這不是應該只是一個療程嗎?另一個是最後他選擇永遠沉默，我們可以把他解釋為一種文本上的完結，因為劇裡的哈姆雷特已死，所以演員本身就沒有任何台詞了，或許其實，當醫學體系試圖治癒瘋狂，反而把他們(指病患)帶到另一種絕境，可能不去治療他們對他們來說才是好的(笑)，觀眾看完以後好像就有一股淡淡的哀愁，而我本身比較喜歡後面這個結局，有這樣的構想我想也是因為我比較擅長做tragic comedy(悲喜劇)的因素吧
問: 對您來說，莎士比亞代表什麼? 之前您的畢業製作是做契柯夫的「櫻桃園」，也深受他的影響，因為契柯夫比較是趨於寫實手法的劇作家，不過您的作品大多不是採用寫實的手法，尤其是這齣「他媽的 哈姆的 悲劇」，有些改編莎劇的演出試圖用寫實的方式呈現，不知道您在莎士比亞的身上是否有看到這份「寫實」?
涂導: 其實對我來說莎士比亞相當不寫實，可以說他是個通俗劇大師，他的作品有血腥、暴力、還有其他通俗劇必備的元素。而契柯夫雖說他是寫實大師，但其實他的劇情走向也算是通俗的，寫實的也是他最迷人之處是在於他對人物的細節刻畫和性格型塑。我覺得莎士比亞吸引人的地方也並不是他的劇情，而是他的文字魅力，老實說比起一些其他的劇作家，我沒有很喜歡他的劇情內容，但他的語言真的是相當吸引人。莎士比亞的作品已經有太多改編了，觀眾想看的早也不是劇情而是去看表演，看手法。當我第一次在導這齣戲的時候，花了比以前都還要久的時間去跟演員解釋這個劇本，他們有的人還是無法理解為什麼要做這樣的安排。以前我的指導老師賴聲川老師強調，重要的應該是文本放在當代產生的意義，還有和觀眾之間的關係，並不是只是想要再去做所謂的忠實呈現。畢竟劇作家已死，但他的作品留傳下來就應該要有其他新的詮釋和意義。在以前的時代，發生在貴族或顯赫之人身上的悲劇才是悲劇，但台灣並不像莎士比亞的年代有所謂貴族階級，台灣的悲劇就是一般民眾的悲劇，我們有理想有知識，卻無法有足夠的行動力，這是我在哈姆雷特身上看到的共通性。回到一開始指導這齣戲所遇到演員理解力上的困難，演員因為不懂為何要把原劇改成這樣因而不知道該怎麼演，之後它在紅樓還有其他地方演出時(不同演員)，有一名法國導演看完之後告訴我他覺得這樣的詮釋非常有趣，還有一個來自柏林的設計師說這是一個新的哈姆雷特。我覺得這也是劇場在台灣發展還不夠成熟的緣故，觀眾沒有養成進劇場看戲的習慣，其實對不管是演員還是觀眾，多方面的接觸和訓練都是很重要的，所謂的「訓練觀眾」，就是可以讓他們更頻繁的進劇場，多接觸所謂實驗性或是不同於以往大家熟悉的線性表演方式，在台灣會來看小劇場的人好像就是年輕族群，因為覺得很酷所以來看，而比較年長的成人也習慣某種表演形式，我希望表演不是被定義在這樣的侷限，而是不同的年齡身分背景都可以在看戲的時候得到屬於自己的感受。對於一部作品，劇作家要懂並清楚自己在做什麼，但觀眾不用拿看不看得懂這件事來困擾自己，對我來說重要的是來看的人可以得到他們想得到的東西，可以是感動、娛樂、或是發洩，每個人的感受都是不同的。
問:在劇裡的醫生一直強調just do it是為了要和哈姆的猶豫做對比嗎?
涂導: 當我知道要做哈姆雷特的時候，我看了原著劇本幾乎五十次，覺得他是一個非常猶豫不決幾乎是一個很煩人的人，而且你會發現他相當依賴何瑞休，我在想如果我有朋友是這樣的人，應該會非常不堪其擾(笑)。就像我之前提的，我在他身上看到某種知識份子的特質，也可以是台灣所謂的文青。哈姆雷特在當時的年代其實是第一波知識份子的代表，在他身上我也得到某種身分認同，有時我們有想法，有慷慨的言論和理想，細密的思考與衡量，這是知識份子非常重要的特質，但也是因為這個「思考周詳」的特質阻擋了行動的發生，就算好不容易有了一個action，但可不可以繼續持續也是一個大問題，這就是我認為台灣現在的現象，我個人有時也是心有戚戚焉。所以沒錯，你會發現真正有決定性做為的是裡面一起陪他演戲的醫生還有病友何瑞休，其實這也是一齣諷刺劇，to be or not to be被體制化成一個case的名稱，醫生照著療程的SOP(標準作業程式)去實驗這樣的方式是否可以成立。我一方面暗示那種在體制機構下人類失去某種人本而淪於機械化的情形，所以我把場景設定在未來，假設所有的一切都被科學還有醫學給定義。因此思考周密的知識份子他們的多慮使他們無法產生有效的行為，反而是沒有那麼多瞻前顧後的行動派和體制在推動歷史前進，這是一個矛盾但又真實的情況。這齣戲藉由這樣的方式，我其實更想探討的是何為真正的悲劇，這也是為何我比較喜歡第二個結局(哈姆最後永遠沉默)的原因，真正的悲劇並不是死亡，而是活著你卻失去了存在感，最後哈姆他並沒有死，也就是他並沒有完成身為哈姆雷特應該要完成的任務，他也不再是哈姆雷特了，他失去了存在的意義，這才是真正的悲劇。
問: 在實際操作和您在戲劇系所研習到的輔助性和出入有多少?
涂導: 因為我在北藝大和台大都待過，現在很多舞台劇的演員也是這兩個地方出身，我就對於這兩個學院就我的觀察做一個分析，台大戲劇的同學比較擅長分析，他們會問你相當細的問題，這個角色的背景個性喜好為何做這個動作的動機等會做相當細膩的研究，最後形成一個表演方式呈現給你看，但是有時候可能是演員本身體悟很深，可是呈現出來的並無法給予觀看者那樣的感受，而北藝大的學生會直接給你幾種不同方式的演法，問你是需要哪一種的，這樣的差異很有趣，我覺得我們在演員的訓練上都需要再加強，剛剛說到寫實的表演手法，如果是在螢幕上呈現是可以達到那樣的效果，可是若是放在舞台上，當演員的能量張力不夠，很容易看起來是一個奇怪的演出，我覺得尤其是聲音訓練是台灣演員普遍缺乏的，要如何把音量放大但維持自然是需要長期訓練的。
問:您把整齣戲分成四幕，分別是朋友、女人、復仇和死亡。除了導戲之外，在架構這齣戲時是否有有別於以往寫劇的方式?
涂導: 這是我第一次寫劇時先擬好大綱，我以前都是從頭開始想到哪裡就讓它有什麼樣的發展，但當然，因為他是莎士比亞，我也有被檢視的壓力，而且其實他的故事架構是很清楚大家也都很熟悉的，細節就更容易被檢視了。我把它分成四個分類因為那是我在哈姆雷特裡看到的架構，同時也反映了人的生活中不可缺少的要素，我們身邊的人，喜歡的人，想做的事，以及對死亡的恐懼。也就是裡面他的朋友，女人，而復仇就是他想做的事。同時我們可以發現其實他是很害怕死亡之後的世界的，雖然對他來說死亡是一種使命的完成，因為以那樣的狀態活著使他失去存在感，但因為對死亡世界未知的恐懼，也是他猶豫不決的原因。
問: 之前您提到比較擅長做tragic comedy，尤其在這齣劇裡，您認為莎劇其實也是充滿著荒謬的成分嗎?
涂導: 是的，除了之前我說他是通俗劇大師之外，這可能也是因為做為一個導演，我認為需要維持七成的理性三成的感性，你必須要和劇本本身保持某種程度的疏離才有辦法較客觀的看到全局還有他背後的建構，而演員則是相反過來，變成三成的理性七成的感性，他才有辦法投入那個角色。所以當我在看悲劇的時候，因為那份疏離感和理性，常常會看到背後的荒謬，當妳保持距離的時候，它會變成comedy，而當你太近的時候，就變成drama了，這也是為何我和那名學生會有相當大的歧意，他是演員出身，因此想要演出那種細膩的情緒，比較偏drama的，但我本身是做戲劇編導的，我們想要的層面就不同，當他堅持要演「他的」哈姆雷特，我卻希望他要去想的不是莎士比亞那個年代的哈姆雷特的邏輯，而是在未來，一個精神病患的狀態，而精神病患的思考是沒有邏輯的，所以在情緒合理上做爭議便會失去它的意義。
問: 在Taipei Times的報導裡，有轉述說在此劇您試著重新處理哈姆雷特和女人之間的關係，您覺得它是一個相當父權代表性的角色，藉由此劇，您是想要去強化父權概念對我們造成的影響還是試圖去翻轉這個關係?
涂導: 如同劇名所說這是「他媽的」哈姆的 悲劇，一方面是他真的很他媽的(煩)，一方面也是這是他跟他媽媽之間的關係所造成的事情。在討論哈姆雷特時，大家會想到底他媽媽，也就是王后，到底知不知道她丈夫是被他弟弟謀殺的，我想他媽媽是知道的，但為了保全，與其說是他自己的性命不如說是為了哈姆雷特的王位，她必須要裝不知情繼續維持王位繼承的合法性以及哈姆雷特的人身安全，裡面的王后還有奧菲麗亞都是禁聲的，在父權的社會裡他們沒有辦法替自己發聲甚至在文本裡也沒有這個權利，在劇裡(他媽的 哈姆的 悲劇)當女醫生也回擊了哈姆的屁股就像哈姆之前把她當奧菲麗亞對待打了她的屁股，全場的觀眾不分男女都拍手歡呼，其實父權並不是專指男性的專有態度，它代表的是一種權威機制。我一直覺得很多人很怕女性主義這個詞，覺得它背後的負擔太重了，其實我之前也是，一直在想我到底是不是一個女性主義者，以前在寫劇本的時候都刻意不要太讓我的女性意識被發現，不想聽到有人看完劇後就說:「這一定是個女作家寫的。」但後來漸漸知道所謂的女性主義也不再只是專指女性才可以聲稱的，它是一種對權威的反動與挑戰的態度，我身邊也很多男性都說他們是女性主義者，因為他們也都被某種權威壓迫，後來我想，不管我再怎麼想掩飾，劇裡一定還是存在自己的意識形態，被發現就被發現吧，所以妳看我最近的「珍妮鳥生活」就是我不想掩飾的最佳表態。(笑)
問:為何在劇中以三語演出(英文中文台語)呈現，還有歌仔戲以及雜技的穿插安排?從兒童劇到您的「意外跨文化劇團」之間的過渡期是受到什麼的影響?因為您的兒童劇似乎試圖把原本固定寓意取向的童話加深了層次，而這齣「他媽的 哈姆的 悲劇」卻把原本哈姆雷特的多重性以瘋狂涵蓋同時也單一化了行為的眾多可能性，希望可以知道您這樣有趣的安排背後的涵意?
涂導: 我覺得妳說的很對，以前我做的第一齣兒童劇「巫婆煮成一鍋湯」裡的巫婆引誘那些所謂好人的角色，包含白雪公主睡美人...等，利用他們的弱點還有愛慕虛榮把他們都丟到鍋子裡成為她的「好人湯」，也是試圖要翻轉童話世界裡太天真的二元對立，好人也有缺點，她的善良也可以是她的武器，我覺得常常兒童劇都把孩子的理解能力低估了，最後淪為空泛的口號:愛與希望的美麗世界。其實他們懂得比我們以為的還多很多，不過不同地區的孩子確實也有不同的反應，在台北演出時，他們看的時候比較冷靜，事後還會認真的討論，而在新竹演出時孩子比較投入，其中有一名孩子看到皮諾丘被丟進鍋子裡時還無法忍受的大哭了。其實這個意外的跨文化是因為後來我們的劇團增加了很多來自不同國家背景的人員，包含演員還有幕後，我覺得這是很好的一件事，演員們可以互相學習，就算有點語言隔閡，但真的可以發現肢體語言是無國界的，像你看到主演哈姆的Adam，他以前在愛丁堡就是一名很專業的演員，他是聽不懂中文的，但是在演出的時候整個節奏還是維持的很好，因為它是靠記憶別人的肢體動作來去反應自己接下來的台詞。我覺得演員的肢體是很重要的，若要說那種細微的寫實，電視或電影可以方便的做到，老實說如果真的要寫實的話，就要有所有年齡層的演員，如同我叫一個二三十歲的人演老人，他可能再怎麼揣摩再怎麼演練台詞也沒有我真的將一個八十歲的老人讓他靜靜的坐在劇場中間，就算他一句話都不說卻相當寫實和有張力，這就是所謂到底劇場該不該寫實的問題，觀眾是否真的有那樣的認同。像我放入歌仔戲，因為我覺得那是很能代表台灣的文化，還有也是因為那位演員本身就是唱歌仔戲出身的，我會因為我的演員組成的性質還有他們的長處來增加不一樣的安排，而且我本身很喜歡雜技，不論是東方的京劇或是西方的特技都包含有雜技的表演形式，雖然沒有語言，但雜技卻是全神貫注在肢體上的動作，他同時可以帶來娛樂性也可以有本身的象徵意義。以前我在戲劇所的時候，老師要我們即興改編莎劇，我串連了莎劇的四部愛情劇，用馬戲團的方式呈現，因為莎劇的愛情還有現實生活中的就像是兩人的消長關係，我下了一個標語叫愛情如馬戲，羅密歐與茱麗葉的戀愛其實本身就充滿荒謬，但這荒謬的成分卻也是促成愛情的因子，你覺得這樣的劇情可笑，但想想在戀愛中的自己其實也一樣可笑，但是當你投入時，一切都是可歌可泣的，這時荒謬與可笑卻讓你看到自己真實的樣子，我想這也可以解釋哈姆那幾近沒有邏輯可笑的背後，其實也是反映面對現實生活中無奈而逃避到極致，卻在其中找到自己存在感的矛盾。
問: 未來有沒有可能再做莎劇改編?
涂導: 如果有機會當然很願意再嘗試，下一齣我會想做的改編可能是「羅密歐與茱麗葉」，兩家的家長不同意對方交往，因為一個來自名聲好的高中一個則是不好的高中，我想這也是台灣所謂的新階級關係吧(笑)。做莎士比亞已經不能只是移植古典，而是要讓文本在現代社會中可以有它的意義和與觀眾的共鳴。
Tseng: You treat Hamlet as the course of treatment, in which the essentially multifaceted character, Hamlet, is rendered univocal as a psycho. What propels you to come up with this idea?
Director Tu: At the very beginning, it was a drama major in NTU (National Taiwan University) asking me to cooperate with him and do further directing for graduation performance, and what he wanted to do at that time is Hamlet , for which we had disparate opinions on script and acting. I believe you know we provided two endings, and audience’s reactions toward each are different and interesting. One version is that in the end Ham dies, fulfilling his fate and mission, which left audience mostly shocked and confused, after all the play Hamlet shall be only for a case of treatment not a real event. Another version is Ham chooses to remain silent forever, which can be regarded as a textual consummation, since Hamlet perished in the end, as an actor playing Hamlet he has no word to say anymore. Perhaps, when medical system tends to cure madness, it may lead the patients to impasse, thus in such case to let them stay what they have stayed could be another better choice. Watching this result, audience may feel the faint sorrow skims over their mind. I myself prefer the second version, and one of the reasons I came up with the main plot of Ham’s Brave New Ward is because I used to and feel more at ease doing tragic comedy.
Tseng: What does Shakespeare mean to you? You choose to do Chekhov’s The Cherry Orchard as your graduation performance, and you said that you have been under great influence of him, whose style is quite realistic, but mostly your plays are not the type, especially Ham’s Brave New Ward. Some Shakespeare adaptations represent the story with realism, do you find Shakespeare realistic?
Director Tu: For me Shakespeare is far away from being realistic, I would even dub him the master of melodrama, whose works contain bloodshed, violence, family struggle that are ingredients for melodrama. The similar characteristic can be found in Chekhov, though as a master of realism, his plot somehow can be melodramatic as well, and what is realistic and also enchanting is how he portrays his characters through detailed and trivial gestures. For me, what’s appealing in Shakespeare’s works is not the plot but his language. Frankly speaking, comparing with other playwrights of classics, I don’t appreciate Shakespeare’s plot that much, but I do love his language. Since his works have been adapted into multiple kinds of performances, what audience is really interested in not the plot but the method, or technique is staging. I spent quite a long time explaining the script ( Ham’s Brave New Ward) to my actors, but some of them still didn’t get the ideas. My advisor, professor Sheng-chuan Lai emphasizes that the significance shall lie in the meaning of texts for our time rather than merely insisting on faithfulness to the origin. After all, the author is dead and absent, but the works have been passed down to elicit new horizons of interpretations. In Shakespeare’s time, only the ill fate of the noble or the great serves the name “tragedy,” of nobody is not. However, there is no noble class in Taiwan, the tragedy in this nation occurs to common people, like those having vision and knowledge, but sufficient action, and this is also the struggle of Hamlet. Back to actors’ understanding of this play, they had encountered difficulty in acting for some of them couldn’t accept the arrangement and logic within the play. When it was staged in The Red House in Taipei, there was a French director came to me said that he enjoyed the play and found this way of interpreting Shakespeare quite interesting. Another costume designer from Berlin called it a “brand new Hamlet.” I think our problem is that our environment for theater is still in development, and generally speaking, most of people in Taiwan regard going to theater as extraordinary experience rather than a thing to do in leisure. In my opinion, not only actors but also the audience needs to be trained and exposed to different forms of theater arts. To have our audience trained means encouraging people to go to theaters more often, and exposed to experimental or any other type different from the performance of linear time that people get too used to. In Taiwan, the target audience for experimental theaters seemingly focuses on young people who think this form of performance is “cool,” but for adults the method is not so acceptable to them. I hope to go beyond this boundary and let my audience of different age and background can enjoy the play in their own way. It is necessary for a playwright to know what he or she is doing for the production, but the audience don’t need to bother themselves figuring out playwright’s intention. To me what is more important is that the audience get what they want, they may find the play speak to their heart, entertaining or provide an outlet to bring the emotion, as long as they can identify with anything in the play.
Tseng: In the play the doctors keep emphasizing the phrase “just do it,” is that for making contrast of Hamlet?
Director Tu: Knowing that I have to do something based on Hamlet, I had read the original script for nearly fifty times and found his (Hamlet) indecisiveness awfully annoying. He mainly relies on Horatio, and I think if I had friend like this I would have him zip his mouth (laugh). As I mentioned, I see in him the characteristic of a typical intellectual, in Taiwan we may call him “wen qing” (refers to young intellectual though there is another kind more akin to “hipster”). Hamlet represents the first wave intellects at his time, and to some extent I identify with him and his struggle. As an intellect, you may issue generous statement and have great expectations, and you have to take different perspectives, examine and approach the core of thing with proper measuring. However, it is also this characteristic of “including all dimensions for considering” delaying the rendering of action, and even there is, whether it continues to have effect and elicits other actions is another challenge, that is the dilemma I think Taiwan has been gone through, and I sometimes have the same feeling. As you pointed out, it is the doctors and the patient acting as Horatio that make the whole play (the play itself and also the play within the play) roll forward. You can take Ham’s Brave New Ward as a satire, within it “to be or not to be” becomes mere tagging of patient case, and the doctors cautiously follow the steps of S.O.P to see the result of the experiment. I try to show how human beings lose the spirit of humanity and become reduced to mechanical operator under the structure of institution, so the time setting is far reaching future when all things are defined by science and medical system. The intellects with thoughtful cast of mind hardly render effective gesture, but people of actions and the governing of institutions keeps history moving forward, this seemingly conflicting phenomenon is the reality. What I intended to explore is that what is tragedy exactly, and the answer explained why I prefer the ending of the second vision (Ham becomes silent), a real tragedy is not death, but a living dead. Being alive still, Ham fails to consummate what Hamlet shall have done, and he is not Hamlet anymore. Losing the meaning for life, that is the real tragedy.
Tseng: Do you find the gap between practical experience and what you have learned in drama department?
Director Tu: I have studied in TNUA (Taipei National University of the Arts) and NTU (National Taiwan University) that many theater actors are trained in these two programs, and I have observed something interesting. Dramatic majors from NTU are usually good at analyzing, they will ask me detailed questions including the background and personality of the character and how these conditions lead to certain gestures for this role, and after speculating upon the cause and effect they form a way of acting to show me the result, but sometimes it is only the actor dedicated deeply to the emotion but the spectators just don’t get it that much. And dramatic majors from TNUA are totally another type, they will show three to five ways of performing for me to choose. It is interesting to see how performers are trained and shaped under different programs, but in terms of the training of actors, I think there is still space to improve. Back to realistic acting we just talked about, which might be more easily achieved if filmed, but onstage, it requires actors with experience and strength, if not, the whole play would be an awkward performance. Most of our actors lack vocal training to project their voice properly without obscuring or exaggerating their acting.
Tseng:You divided the play into four acts, which are Ham’s friends, women, revenge, and death, and it seems more like a categorizing rather than a chronological sequence. In addition to directing, how do you make the structure like this and whether it differs to what you used to do in script writing?
Director Tu: That was my first time setting the plot structure before any word to be put down. I used to let my pen follow my thoughts henceforth the story would be open until I finish the whole thing, but not the same dealing when writing Ham’s Brave New Ward. That is, certainly, because I was doing Shakespeare, I’d better get ready to be examined since people are familiar with his plot structure, the focus will be laid on the details. I divided the play into four categories for that in my perspective, the play Hamlet is built upon Hamlet’s relations with theses four, which also represent the indispensible elements in our life: people around us, people we like, things we want to do, and our fear of death. For Hamlet, to revenge is the thing he wants to succeed and achieve, and he is also afraid of the unknown state after death, though death to him seems the ineluctable outcome and means another mission completed because being alive with such desperate state of mind could be worse than death. His fear of death is also one of the reasons of postponing the action.
Tseng: You mentioned that you prefer to do tragic comedy, do you think Shakespeare’s woks also contain the elements of absurdity?
Director Tu: Yes, I will find the lurking absurdity in Shakespeare’s work just like how I treat him as the master of melodrama, and another reason is that, as a director, I think you have to maintain 70 percents of rationality and 30 percents of sensibility, to have the panoramic view on the work and seek the trace of playwright’s mind, it is necessary for a director to keep a bit of distance with the work. While for actors it is the reverse, that is 30 percents of rationality and 70 percents of sensibility, so he can get into the role. That explains why when I watch or read tragedy, because of being alienated and rational, I see the absurdity behind. Seeing with distance, thing appears as comedy, getting too close, it becomes drama. Owing to this difference between director and actor, my perspective was opposite with that drama major I mentioned, as an actor wanting to let out the flow of emotion, his version is more drama like, so what we wanted to focus is quite different. He insisted on playing his Hamlet, but I tried to persuade him into having a logic of a psycho, not of Shakespeare’s Hamlet, and the only logic of a mad person is illogic, so it would be meaningless if spending too much efforts on “proper emotion.”
Tseng: I have learned from your interview in Taipei Times that in Ham’s Brave New Ward you tried to give a new dealing of relation between Hamlet and women. You have mentioned that you take Hamlet as a patriarchal character, so by this play, did you try to reverse the power relationship between man and woman or rather, just emphasized how our mind is shaped and formed by patriarchal structure in society?
Director Tu: As the title suggests (in Chinese this play is called 「他媽的 哈姆的 悲劇」, means “damn Ham’s tragedy,” 他媽的is Chinese cursing word and also means “of his mother”), Ham is too annoying for people around him to bear with, and the story itself is also based on his relation with his mother. In discussing issues in Hamlet, we wonder whether his mother, the queen, knows that his husband is murdered by Claudius, and I think she does. However, on the behalf of Hamlet rather than of herself, she has to pretend to be ignorant for not arousing suspicion or Claudius may come up with another scheme to persecute Hamlet, and if that happens there would be no hope for Hamlet to regain the crown. In Hamlet, the female characters Gertrude and Ophelia are prevented from speaking for themselves. In patriarchal society they are deprived of their voice, even the text didn’t give the right either. In a scene of Ham’s Brave New Ward, when the female doctor taps Ham’s bottom just as how he did to her because he treated her as Ophelia, the audience including men and women burst out in loud cheers. Patriarchy is not just limited to men’s dominion but it also represents institution or authority. I think people somehow fear feminism for the burden of its discourse, and honestly I used to think that way as well. I ask myself whether I am a feminist or not since I used to suppress my feminine consciousness when writing scripts, I don’t want to hear things like “it’s definitely a female playwright’s work.” But gradually I have learned that it is not only for women to claim feminism since it shall be taken as a challenge or reaction to authority. Some of my male friends are pro feminism because they think they are under oppression of the ideology of authority. And the truth is, no matter how hard I try to cover up, my work always entails my consciousness, so why not just let it be? My latest play My Name is Jenny could be the finest demonstration of “I am ok with that”.(smile)
Tseng: Why you made the play trilingual(English, Chinese and Taiwanese) and added acrobatics and Taiwanese opera? From children theater to “E.W cross-cultural theater” (E. W refers to “yi wai” in Chinese, which means accidentally), what motivates you to change your focus? In your children plays, you tried to increase the layers of interpretations to fairy tales which usually carry morals, but on the contrary, you seemed to simplify Ham’s characteristics that all his behaviors, due to his madness, are rendered the same since they are only the presentations of symptoms, so what prompts you to come up the idea?
Director Tu: I think you are right at the point. In my first children play「巫婆煮成一鍋湯」(The witch is making soup), the witch seduces those “good characters” such as Snow White or sleeping beauty by their weakness and arrogance and put them into cauldron to make “good people soup,” to do this I tried to reverse and go beyond the naïve binary of good and bad in fairy tale. Those what we call “good people” have their defects and weakness, their kindness can be their weapons to defend themselves. I think children plays usually underestimate children’s comprehension; therefore those plays might be merely reduced to slogan like “wonderland of love and hope.” What children knows are much more than we presume, and their reactions are varied according to different regions. In Taipei, children had behaved more calmly when watching and they would discuss the play. In Hsinchu it is another situation, children are more engaged and there was a boy even burst out crying when seeing Pinocchio being thrown into the cauldron! So we started our E. W(accidentally) cross-cultural theater mainly because later on we have many newcomers from different countries to join our troupe, including actors and backstage crew, which I deem as a progress for actors to learn from each other even there is a bit of language barrier, but body language crosses the boundaries. Like Adam who played Ham is a theater actor from Edinburgh, although he can’t understand much Chinese, he has no problem to interact with other actors in the play that he knows when to respond according to certain gestures of other actors as hints. I think body language for actors is quite important. Talking of realistic acting the main concern lies on the control of emotion, but just like what I said, realistic styles are more easily produced by film or TV, if I really tend to make a realistic play, I need actors of all ages, if there is a character of old age in the play, it is more realistic and convincing to put a real eighty-year-old man on stage rather than making a young man play this role. So again, it is the issue of whether theater shall be realistic, sometimes the audience just don’t feel that way. I added Taiwanese opera because it is representative for Taiwanese culture, and another reason is that the actress knows how to do it since she used to sing in Taiwanese opera troupe. I feel free to add in different type of performance according to my actors’ capabilities. I myself like acrobatics pretty much, no matter in eastern theater as Beijing opera or western stun performance, acrobatics are frequently included. When doing acrobatics, the performer totally concentrate on the balance of his physical body. Without language, acrobatics is a visual entertainment and also can be seen as a symbol if there is one. When I was in drama department, my professor asked us to adapt any work of Shakespeare impromptu, so I integrated four love stories of his work and represent them in a circus like performance. For me any relation of love no matter in Shakespeare or in our life is like a tug of war between the two, I entitled the impromptu play as “love is like circus.” Romeo and Juliet’s romance is quite absurd, but that absurdity is indispensible for love. You find their three-day romance ridiculous, but you are the same when falling in love with someone, but you may not sense that when you are in the relation because you would be so devoted that everything between you two is as stirring as a love story. In the absurdity and ridiculousness we are much closed to ourselves, and that also explains the paradox of Ham that he chooses madness as an ultimate escape from reality, but it is only in such state he feels alive.
Tseng: Would you be willing to do Shakespeare adaptation again in the future?
Director Tu: If having chance, sure. I would like to try Romeo and Juliet in which the two families are unhappy with each other because the couple enters different high schools that one is at the toppest of the ranking and the other is at the bottom, I think that is the new hierarchy order in Taiwan now (laugh). Doing Shakespeare is not about making copy of the classic but extending it to have a new layer of meanings related to contemporary issues and the audience.
